Natallia Radzina: Apart From Export Of Chocolate, Ukraine Should Export Revolution

Belarusian democrats are a guarantor of stability and security in Ukraine.

The editor-in-chief of charter97.org website Natallia Radzina said that in an interview to the Ukrainian TV channel Espresso.

— You have heard the news about various abuses and frauds in the local elections in Ukraine. We elected mayors of those cities, which had not been elected during the first voting. Do you think the elections system with two rounds of voting reveals great democracy?

— You cannot even compare the situation in Belarus and Ukraine. After the previous presidential elections that were held in 2010, I found myself in the KGB prison. Let me remind you that almost all independent presidential candidates and members of their electoral headquarters were arrested in Belarus on December 19, 2010. I was detained as the editor-in-chief of charter97.org, the largest independent online mass media outlet of the country. I was officially accused of staging “mass riots”, which carried a punishment of up to 15 years’ imprisonment.

There is harsh dictatorship close to Ukraine. Ukrainians must understand that. The situations in our countries cannot be compared. There is democracy in Ukraine today. Yes, it may be imperfect, but I'm sure Ukrainians will be able to cope with that.

— Before the last presidential election significant concessions had been made, opposition rallies had been allowed. What was the reason?

— The only reason for that is to the fact that now Lukashenka needs money. He needs loans both from the West and from Russia. First of all, from the West, as Russia is not able to support its satrap to the extent it has been supporting him for the last 20 years. Lukashenka pretends to be somehow easing his dictatorial regime.

Before the “elections” political prisoners were released, but those people had spent almost 5 years in jail and they were subjected to inhuman tortures. Lukashenka simply sold them to the West now, as he needs money badly. The economy of Belarus has not been reformed, the country is living through a dire economic crisis. A certain kind of slave-trade is taking place in this situation – selling political prisoners to the West. He had been trying to demonstrate the same during the electoral campaign. It resulted in the West lifting the sanctions imposed after the elections in 2010. Today we are facing a betrayal of democratic values, with a betrayal of the Belarusian nation’s interests, as the regime in Belarus has not changed in any fashion.

Lukashenka has become the chief negotiator in Donbas conflict.

— And it’s a catastrophe, and for Ukraine as well. You should understand that as long as there is a dictatorship in Belarus, there is a potential threat for Kyiv from the North. Belarus stays in one and the same “union state” with Russia. It is a military base, a beachhead for Moscow. Lukashenka’s regime is absolutely dependent on Russian money, oil and gas. As soon as Putin increases prices for energy resources for Minsk to the level of the rest of the world, Lukashenka is to come to the Kremlin on bended knees. His today’s statements are purely a play for the western market, and a demonstration of pseudo-independence in order to receive the money from the West. I would like to remind that in 2008 we had almost the same situation. Lukashenka received the IMF loans then. It resulted in his spending this money on military exercises with Russia, massive crackdown in Belarus and the current war of Russia against Ukraine.

Two years ago, when Euromaidan started in Ukraine, when people just started talking about a pro-European regime replacing the pro-Russian one, and that the Russian military base could be removed from the Crimea, the annexation of the peninsula took place. Is it contemplated, though in the long term, that the democratic forces of Belarus would come out for removing Russian military servicemen from your territory?

— Today the Belarusian opposition has two tasks. The first one is to return its subjectivity, and the second one is to remove the impact of the “Russian world” on the territory of the country. Belarus is a European state with European history and traditions. We need help and solidarity, and from Ukrainians as well. Your victory would mean our victory. We organize meetings with representatives of the Ukrainian authorities, MPs, and we urge you to remember about the people in Belarus, and not be just engaged in carrying on oil products and chocolate trade with Belarus, understanding that Lukashenka is not a peacemaker. We urge you to place stakes on the people and understand that the Belarusian democrats are exactly the guarantor of stability and security of Ukraine.

— Will the time of easing restrictions be enough for the Belarusian opposition to raise a consolidated force, which will finally be able to come to power in the next elections? Does the Belarusian opposition have a strategic plan?

— Straight off we have to say that there are no elections in Belarus. Therefore, it makes no sense to organize something from date to date, every five years. All elections are rigged up in Belarus. That’s a show performed by Lukashenka’s regime. On the other hand, there will be the parliamentary elections in Belarus next year, and there the situation could be completely different.

One needs to understand that the economic situation of the country is catastrophic. These days new repressive laws are adopted. They make the situation unfavourable both for private business and common citizens. Enterprises are closed on a massive scale, there is enormous inflation in Belarus, devaluation, and redenomination is taking place next year. Prices are rising, wages are falling, pensions are poor, the average pension is about $ 90. In this situation any scenario is possible, including the opposition’s coming to power, but we have to work for that. We are urging our friends and partners, including the ones from Ukraine, to help the democratic forces, independent media, civil society in Belarus, as it is extremely necessary today. Do not put all your eggs in one basket, stop dealing with Lukashenka’s regime only. The situation can change overnight.

— We have touched on the issue of Western sanctions, when the EU, seeing that Lukashenka had chosen the perfect time, offered Minsk as a venue for “the Normandy Four” to settle the conflict in Donbas ...

— Do you understand that Putin has made that, not Lukashenka? Minsk agreements were favorable for Putin exclusively. All that confusion, all those Minsk disputes were needed only to Russia. Firstly, they provided the time delay, which Putin needed badly, and secondly, the legitimization of the separatists, which actually took place in Minsk. The location was also chosen by Putin, and Lukashenka used the whole situation to legitimize himself in the West.

— The European Union has partially lifted sanctions on Belarus. I understand that that has been done after Lukashenka had allegedly chosen the European path of development, and did not support Putin so much. At least he demonstrated that. Who was affected by those sanctions? And is there any result for the Belarusian people after those sanctions were lifted?

— The sanctions mainly concerned Belarusian officials, responsible for human rights violations, for abductions and murders of opposition leaders, for murders of journalists. Therefore, they were sanctions directly against criminals and accomplices of crimes. There were mostly visa sanctions: Lukashenka and his family and two hundred officials were banned from entering the EU. The sanctions also dealt with a number of oligarchs, sanctions were slapped on their businesses in the European Union. In fact no large-scale economic sanctions against Lukashenka's regime were introduced. Such sanctions against Belarusian refineries were introduced in the United States, but following the European Union they also were eased, not lifted, but partially eased.

And sure we can say that no serious sanctions have been introduced against Lukashenka during all this time. But even those sanctions that had already been imposed earlier were necessary, as yet they somehow made it clear if not to Lukashenka and top officials, then to those people who had committed crimes in Belarus, that they were being watched and that the punishment is on its way. Abolition of the sanctions today is equal to giving a carte blanche to the Belarusian authorities for continuation of repressions.

— You mentioned Belarusian oligarchs. There is a widespread opinion among the Ukrainians that Lukashenka has built socialism in Belarus where all enterprises belong to the state, where there are neither rich nor poor and everybody is equal to everybody else. And you are talking about oligarchs. I think, a lot of Ukrainians watching “Espresso” now are a bit bewildered.

— There is only one real oligarch in Belarus – Lukashenka himself. There also are several puppet oligarchs, who run their business under the “roof” of Lukashenka regime. Part of their income goes to the dictator, and that’s it, this is the system. Naturally, it’s the vertical — there is a dictator and there are some businessmen subordinate to him. This is not the oligarchic system, which has been built up in Ukraine. But how much is it better? I believe that it is not better, perhaps it’s even worse.

— How do ordinary people and the political opposition of Belarus perceive the approach used by Western countries to build the relationships with the Belarusian dictatorship against the background of recent events, when Lukashenka wants to get some financial subsidies from the EU in order to support his economy?

— Disappointment. Complete disappointment. The Belarusians are fighting for the European values while the European Union itself betrays these values by removing sanctions from the dictator and continues to deal with him. Considering this, of course they are disappointed. Nevertheless, the Belarusians will still continue to fight for freedom, Belarus will be in Europe. I think that not all the Ukrainian citizens are happy with the policy pursued in their country, but nonetheless Ukraine will join Europe, I'm sure.

— We are sure too. What policy does the USA follow in regards to Belarus and how does it differ from the one that the USA implements towards Ukraine?

— Unfortunately, the USA’s policy towards Belarus today doesn’t differ a lot from the European policy. In some cases America is still more principled than the European Union, but in general they have very similar approaches. As long as the USA is also ready to establish the so-called pragmatic relations with the Lukashenka regime. On the other hand, the USA has always been principled l in its attitude towards the Belarusian regime. The idea was that the European Union joined the USA’s position concerning the Lukashenka regime. If the EU had joined the sanctions imposed by the USA against the Belarusian dictatorship, we would have a very different government today. Unfortunately, the opposite has happened.

— After the military aggression of the Russian Federation against Ukraine, we’ve started to build a barrier against the north-eastern neighbor. How do you think, do we need to build or at least to strengthen the near-border defense capacity at the border with Belarus, given that there are forces of the Russian Federation on its territory?

— I would say you need to do two things. First of all, of course, Ukrainian military officials should understand the military threat that may come from the Belarusian territory. I think they understand it. Secondly, Ukrainian authorities should export democracy, export revolution to Belarus. It’s important to support the media that work for Ukraine. It’s important to support Belarusian democrats, because you have a direct interest in it. In particular, Ukraine should have some sort of information policy towards Belarus. We know that Lukashenka had a meeting with Poroshenko last year and he promised to the Ukrainian President that Belarus would have a free broadcast of a Ukrainian TV channel. But there are no Ukrainian channels in Belarus. Charter97.org website is actually the only major media in Belarus today, which provides news about Ukraine every day; we have a separate section on Ukraine.

Belarusians extremely need that, because they have been zombified by Russian propaganda. According to opinion polls, more than 60% support the actions of Russia in Ukraine. Do you understand that you are losing an ally? Lukashenka is not your ally. You are losing the entire nation, so it is necessary to work in Belarus today, it is necessary to create FM-stations on the Ukrainian border with Belarus, it is necessary for at least one Ukrainian TV channel to broadcast in Belarus. Support Belarusian independent media, tell your partners to support the Belarusian independent media, since now they help Ukraine in Belarus. It is crucial to you.