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Krzysztof Stanowski: Main thing is not to be slave to history

Krzysztof Stanowski: Main thing is not to be slave to history
Krzysztof Stanowski
Photo: Mateusz Mularski

Why Poland is always at the forefront of the struggle for freedom in Europe?

A few days ago a Lech Walesa Solidarity Prize was awarded in Warsaw. The choice of the winner is always very timely. Last year, when Crimea was occupied, the award was presented to Mustafa Dzhemilev. This year it was Zhanna Nemtsova.

Today, the chief editor of charter97.org Natalia Radina has interviewed the president of the International Solidarity Fund, a former Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Poland Krzysztof Stanowski.

- For two years, in Poland, the Lech Walesa Solidarity Prize has been awarded to the fighters for freedom and human rights in the world. Why is it Poland that is always at the forefront of the human rights struggle in Europe, and not, for example, Germany, where the Berlin Wall fell, or the Czech Republic, where there was a "velvet revolution"?

- Why not Germany? Why not the Czech Republic? We should not forget that Poland was the first. The communist regime collapsed in Poland first. And the Berlin Wall is a consequence of what happened in our country, its fall was accidental. And what we did was planned.

Solidarity is when the life, the future of the other person is no less important than your own life or the lives of your family, your loved ones. When we fought for our country, we knew that it should bring freedom to Belarusians, Ukrainians, East Germans and the Czechs - anyone who wants to be free without violence.

The fact that Mustafa Dzhemilev became the first recipient of the Solidarity Award is also symbolic. Mr Dzhemilev defended not only the Crimean Tatars. He was sentenced for a protest against the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia.

- Every year, by dozens of people from around the world are nominated for this award. But for the second time the award was given to a person from the post-Soviet region. Last year saw the award given to the leader of the Crimean Tatars, Mustafa Dzhemilev, this year - the daughter of the murdered Russian politician Zhanna Nemtsova. What arguments were decisive in favor of these candidates?

- I must say that both in the first and in the second case there was a consensus. Honestly, when we conceived with Radoslaw Sikorski this award, we did not expect the first two winners to be from our region.

Unfortunately, the situation changed and we had to draw the world's attention to Ukraine and Russia. That's why Mustafa Dzhemilev and Zhanna Nemtsova.

Regarding Mustafa Dzhemilev I want to say once again: this man tied his whole life to the struggle for human rights, for the rights of his small nation and he did it without violence and in a democratic way.

Zhanna Nemtsova is a totally different case. She represents a large nation that has a great political significance in the world. Peoples like that find it easy to say: we have the right, we expect, you have to reckon with us. But there are representatives of the peoples who are their conscience and who remind them: Yes, there are many of us, yes, we are great, but even more so, we must respect and listen carefully to others.

Boris Nemtsov, of course, was such a person. His work is continued by his daughter Zhanna. And these two awards - first to a small people, half of whom died during the deportations, and the second for a representative of the vast nation - are very similar. And I think the moment of Mustafa Dzhemilev giving his Tatar scarf to Zhanna Nemtsova during the ceremony is very symbolic.

- Were you personally acquainted with Boris Nemtsov?

- I met him during the Civil Forum in Moscow in November 2014. Then there were very few representatives of the West, many people did not get a visa. From Poland managed to come Minister Adam Rotfeld and me. We discussed the situation that had developed around Ukraine: what it meannt for the world and for Russia.

Boris was very confident, very calm in his judgments, but at the same time absolutely frank. He bluntly said that Crimea had been occupied, and the dialogue between Russia and the West could be conducted only after the return to the old borders. And if we did not recognize it, but would only speak about the Russian cuisine, Ukrainian dumplings and shirts - it would be not a dialogue, but an illusion.

- According to opinion polls, it is in Poland that people think worst of Russia and Putin. The Solidarity Award puts the normal Russians in the spotlight. Is this done deliberately?

- Yes. Because otherwise it would be unfair and unreasonable. It is unwise to create an image of the enemy, saying that all Russian is bad. It is not true.

My father was in prison in the 1950s and suffered from the Soviet system. Of course, in our family there was no great love for Russia and Russians. But we sang Bulat Okudzhava only in Russian: "We are bound, Agnieszka, by a fate for a long time, in parting, and forgiveness, and the laughter and tears ..."

You mentioned Russia and Putin. I do not know of cases when the person who speaks in Russian would come to a Polish shop or restaurant and had some problems. You can come and talk in Warsaw in Russian - you would not always be understood, but no one will treat you with disrespect.

But, of course, Poles are against the Russian regime which illegally occupied Crimea and is waging war in Donbass. The vast majority - I do not want to name an exact figure, but I would say that more than 90% - think of this absolutely negatively.

- How did you react to the decision of Zhanna Nemtsova to give part of the award to the people affected in Ukraine?

- Honestly, it shows that we made a good choice by awarding the prize to Zhanna Nemtsova. The same thing happened with Mustafa Dzhemilev. When asked whether it means that all his prize would go to help the Tatars, he said "no."

Yes, of course, Tatars also get help, but I recently had the honor of taking part in the first solemn transfer of funds to the families of "Heavenly hundred," and the support was given to Ukrainians, Belarusians, Poles and Russians, who died on the Maidan.

Solidarity Award winners are the people who understand that Poland has given them a chance to use their own name when spending rather a big amount, and to help others. It's quite new, because I have not heard that other countries allowed foreigners to decide how taxpayers' money would be used.

Zhanna Nemtsova wants to help people affected by the conflict in the Ukraine-Russia border - the common people, who had lived all their lives in Donbas, spoke in Russian, but their children were already taught Ukrainian; who consider themselves part of Russian culture, but citizens of Ukraine. Unfortunately, the actions of the Russian state put them in the area of ​​war and occupation.

- Zhanna also decided to support the website charter97.org ...

- Why Zhanna Nemtsova supported the Charter-97? I think the answer is very simple. Out of the foreign, not Ukrainian mass media, which became important sources of information for the Russian-speaking population about the events on Maidan, Belarusian website charter97.org is a major one. This is confirmed by all.

As to to the operation of this website in Belarus, the day before yesterday I spoke to a former Belarusian political prisoner who said to me: "You know, Krzysztof, the guards in the prison came to me and passed on news only from the site Charter 97. And they read about me on this website as well."

Yes, charter97.org is the Belarusian media outlet, but it is not only private, domestic issue of Belarus, because the Belarusian issues cannot be solved in the absolute isolation from the region.

- By the way, why Ukraine, which had two revolutions, is not engaged in "exporting" their experience of democratic reforms, as Poland does?

- It's a pleasure to hear nice words about Poland, I am very proud. But we must not forget that our assistance programs appeared not 25 years ago, but much later. The real funding and support for democracy from the Polish budget became possible after Poland's accession to the EU.

On the other hand, I had a chance to work with many non-governmental organizations from Ukraine, with whom we worked in Russia, Belarus, the Caucasus, Central Asia and Mongolia. Of course, the Ukrainian government is not yet supporting them seriously, but I think it will happen in the future. Frankly, in the 1989-90s, when the annual inflation rate in Poland was 600%, we also first thought how to balance the budget.

I think that Ukraine will join the support of democracy in other countries, and I hope that the Ukrainian example will still show that democracy is possible not only in the United States, Germany, Poland and France, but also in Belarus, Russia, Kazakhstan...

- But it seems that for the new Ukrainian authorities the dictator Lukashenka is the best friend and business partner.

- Things change, Ukraine is changing. Democratic elections and democratic behavior are not always the same thing. And it is a hundred times more difficult for Ukraine than it was for Poland, because at that time we did not have the oligarchs.

At the time, Russia did not care about us, there was a relative freedom, our neighbors were more concerned with their own internal problems than us. And it gave us a chance. It is necessary to use such chances when they appear, we must be ready for them.

- In another interview you said that today Ukraine is in a position of Poland during World War II, and today it is not a border conflict, but a global problem. Does this issue get enough attention in the world?

- In 1917, President Woodrow Wilson raised the Polish issue in his proposals, which related to the world after the First World War. At that very moment the Polish issue stopped being a border one, although there were countries that wanted to call it a local conflict.

It is the same with Ukraine. There are forces that are doing everything for the issue of Syria to be the only global one, so that people's attention was focused on Greece, and Ukraine would look like just a country with a mess needed to be cleaned.

But talking with political leaders of Australia, Canada, Germany, Japan, I see that this issue is important to them. Of course, in the end everything depends on the Ukrainians. With no changes, no reforms all this will disappear like it did after the "orange" revolution.

- Why does the EU, with the exception of Poland, have no a serious interest in the democratization of Belarus? Yes, perhaps it is possible to deal situationally with dictator Lukashenka. For example, to circumvent the sanctions by means of smuggling. But today's problems in the region cannot be solved without a key transit country, which is Belarus. And even more so if this key transit country is the Russian satrapy.

- Poland has always supported the democratic future of Belarus. On the other hand, when a fire starts, it does not change the priorities, but the sequence of decisions. Today in our region, for the first time since World War II, we again have fighting. And it could lead to a repetition of the large scale conflict similar to what happened in 1939.

Do not forget that at that time, too, it all began with "small border conflicts", and Europe could not respond quickly enough. And it means that, with all due respect to Belarus, we must understand that today the main conflict is unfortunately happening in Ukraine. And this is the fire that has to be put out.

- Aren't you afraid that while the fire is being extinguished in one place, it will start somewhere else?

- We are afraid. But does that mean that the firefighters' trucks have to stay in the garage, because it can start somewhere else? No, they will go. Although there is a risk that they may be needed elsewhere, too.

- At a meeting with Jeb Bush, US presidential candidate, you said that "for 400 years Poles did everything possible not to be slaves of Russia" ...

- No, I said, not to be slaves to the history.

- I quote «Der Spiegel».

- Probably, they were mistaken. I said: in the last 400 years, you could become a national hero in two ways - to kill a neighbor or be killed by neighbors. But we did not want to be slaves to the history and did not pass tradition to our children. We remember history, respect heroes, but we are trying to go another way.

- What can we expect from America in the current situation? You said that at the time Poland was saved by Woodrow Wilson. But now all the countries of the former Soviet Union once again face the threat of becoming part of the Russian Empire.

- For us, the Poles, the United States is a symbol of freedom. We are confident that the United States, together with regional partners, need to work to support democracy.

America is also the equilibrium partner for Russia - any action of Washington is very important for Moscow. No matter who the new US president will be - Democrat or Republican - it is necessary that this country is present in our region, supporting democracy.

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